Please disable your adblocker on this website!
The website costs are covered by using ads that are non-intrusive. Please whitelist this domain in your adblocker software or plugin. Thank you.

Schakel alstublieft de adblocker uit!
De kosten van het hosten van de website worden betaald met advertentie-inkomsten. Voeg alstublieft een uitzondering toe voor dit domein in de software of plugin.

Lack of top speed!?

Talk in english about Honda Camino PA50 Hobbit mopeds

Moderator: -Camino Crew-

Post Reply
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

Hi there,
got my Camino about two months ago. All vanilla, no modifications. It is (now) in good shape for something built in (I think) 1982.
A friend of mine got it to run by taking it apart, cleaning each and everything and putting it together again (I'm not a motors expert, could hardly do an oil change on my car). It starts and runs reliable, but something is wrong I think. I could need your help please.
Symptoms:
Camino won't run faster than 25 km/h on flat ground. Does not react much on throttle (only goes a bit louder).
I think the lowest possible RPM before the engine stalls (goes off) is too high, even with no throttle applied it pulls on the Variator and runs at close to 20 km/m (that's too fast for "idle", isn't it?). I know how to lower the idle RPM, that's not the problem. The problem is that if I lower it, the engine dies as soon as I release the throttle. The idle RPM should be possible to set low enough so that there is practically no drag to the clutch, right?
Tried to make adjustments to the pilot airscrew and found out there is practically no effect if I turn that screw.
And yesterday I had a big surprise: all of a sudden, the bike accelerated and accelerated, went close to 40 km/h (which I think should be normal from what I read), stayed at that speed, and then rolled out to a stop - ran out of gas. Seems the engine runs fine if it's low on gas - how can that be? Refueled and it ran as before (25 km/h max). Also somewhat surprising: as I put the tap lever up to switch to reserve I noticed nothing was going. Seems like I ran completely out of gas, no reserve - but why?

Thanks a lot for any help!
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

Hello Knutnukem,

There is a problem with the carburetor.

1) There is a screw on the carburetor to handle the idle throttle. But you first need to fix the rest before changing this to the level where the camino does not stall but does not run away either.

2) There is a screw on the carburetor to change the air/gas mixture. I think the default setting is 2x a 360degree turn outwards. You can check the effect of the mixture on the sparkplug, the color of the sparkplug should be "coffee with milk" brown.

3) You should check the air inlet filter (behind the carburetor) is clean, so air can run through freely.

4) If it still fails, than the carburetor probably is dirty inside and must be cleaned.

you can check this very good movie on how to do that:
http://www.hondacaminotuning.be/forum/v ... 18&t=32167
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

Hey GoBieN!
First of all, thanks for the very quick reply (and big sorry for the big delay in my reply)!
Also, thanks for the link to the video. Very good explanation, even for a noob like me. But the carburator had been cleaned by an expert in an ultrasonic bath. It should be 100% clean. Same for the exhaust (had been cleaned by burning Diesel in it until it was red hot, then blew pressurized air through it).
I can't turn in the idle screw enough to prevent the engine from going off, so I fixed the throttle cable in a way that it's always pulling a little more on that lever which the idle screw would limit (idle screw just does not touch that little lever).
The air/gas mix screw does not do very much, no matter which direction I turn it, even when the engine is warm.
Air filter is nice and clean, but no original part. It's some fluffy material like the filter mat in a range hat (afzuigkap?). Without air filter, it runs very sluggish.
The spark plug has a "coffee with a lot of milk" colour. Looks ok.
Now I found out that in warm weather (20°C outside) after riding the Camino for say 15 minutes it may (or may not) accelerate to about 35 km/h on flat ground, which is the way I think it should be (I'm happy with that).
But why does it take so long to warm up?
Is using 3 liters of gas for ~80 km a normal ratio? Is it maybe running "too fat"?
Is it normal that where the exhaust goes into the engine there is always a bit of oil? It's also oozing out of that screw on the exhaust (not much).
Is it ok to use 1:50 mixture with modern oils as the guy in the gas station told me?
Thanks mate!
User avatar
camino_expert
-= Moderator =-
-= Moderator =-
Posts: 4021
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2009, 19:32
Location: koersel

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by camino_expert »

hello knotnukem

how does the motor sounds ?

if you give full gas

does he make this sound

like first he goes good , and than he does prrrrr ?

if it is so

that is just the cilinder holding in
you can easy change that

i will read it

thank you
good luck grtz m ;)

ps
it's normal he goes faster , if the fuel is on his last

he sucks air inside an runs a little faster for a few seconds

now what can you try

if it is an org moped that runs legaly 25
remove for a few minuts the airfilter
drive a moment without
if he goes than faster
you have a little work on the cilinder
of maybe just set an other exhaulst

with the org 25 p h motors you have to see
if it runs to fast
the motor makes a lot of rpm's and wil be heated ,
the cilinder wil be overheated , with the problems that follow

so i wil hear it
good luck ;)
honda camino forever
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

Hey Camino_expert, thanks for the infos!
With full throttle, the engine sound changes to have a bit more bass. It does not scream or purr... A colleague who is much into 2-cycle engines (but model airplanes, not so much bikes) thinks the engine sounds muffled, like if you speak through a handkerchief.
Thanks for the hint that its normal it runs faster when running out of gas... didn't know that.
The bike is original with 25 km/h top speed "by the papers".
If I remove the air filter, it doesn't even reach 20 km/h, even with engine properly warmed up.

How much petrol would you expect a "vanilla" Camino to use per 100 km?
Which mixture do you use? 1:25, 1:50 or something in between?
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

With full synthetic oil of good quality 2% is fine.
When using performance parts or riding in a new cylinder some use 3% mixture ratio.
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

If it's still the standard exhaust there could be a limitation built in to the gooseneck of the exhaust.
If you could fit a Proma Circuit exhaust you would see better performance in speed and pulling power.
[image]56[/image]
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

Thanks for the hints! I'll check the exhaust pipe. I don't really dare installing a special exhaust, because in the end my son will get the bike, and I don't want him to get troube with the police just because I thought the bike ought to be able to run faster.
But basically, now I see it does run more than 35 km/h on flat ground I'm happy with the performance. Seems I gotta live with the effect that it takes really long to "warm up" to be able to reach that speed.
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

There is also a particular good exhaust for good pulling performance without increasing speed. We call it a SITO brand potje.
[image]92[/image]

At the bottom is the logo spelling out the name SITO.
There is not bolt on the side as some other do have.
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

Hey that one looks close to the original, I think there should not be any troubles with this one!
I had already thought about maybe buying this one:

Looks very similar. Says in the article description it has no release for public roads ("Auspuffanlage besitzt keine Zulassung für den Straßenverkehr!"), but I think nobody will notice this not being an original part.
What do you think about this one? Is it maybe the same (apart from the brand) than the one above?
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

SITO potje looks like the original but is better. There is no bolt on the side and the brand name SITO is on the bottom, and the paint finish is more matte. I found one on eBay but expensive: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Honda-Camino-PA- ... 1194096979 Or maybe someone here has one for sale or you could ask in the facebook group.

The one you're linking is probably what we call a Fast Arrow potje or english potje (although the photo doesn't show the bolt side). That FA or English potje has a bit more top speed than the SITO potje, but I believe less pulling power. Ps the same you linked on eBay: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Auspuff-Tec ... Sw~bFWNNQA

[image]112[/image]

Anyways, both are better than original one.
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

Thanks a lot mate! I'll probably get me one of those. Better pull and more top speed would be cool.
Apart from that, I'm rather happy with my bike's performance now, now that I know that it just needs some 10 minutes to warm up. Started the thread because I thought it would not go faster than 25 km/h and thought it should do.
Today I took it for a longer test drive. Drove to work with it (2x20 km, mostly flat, but two fierce hills), got to an average speed of 30 km/h.
Before that I thought that it would help to go downhill first to bring it to "high speed" temperature, but that doesn't work. It just takes its time, no matter at which RPM. Firstly, it will stutter around 15-20 km/h, after ~ 5 minutes you can reach a steady 25 km/h and then all of a sudden it will run up to 35 or even more. For now, that's all I want.
Thanks to all of you for the support! I'll stay around...
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

It's normal to stutter a little when still cold, but it should not take more than 5 mins. And the 2nd speed increase seems strange to me.

Buy the cheap FA or English potje and try, it should make a difference. If you're interested too see what kind of exhausts there are, we have a rather complete photo album.
http://www.hondacaminotuning.be/forum/a ... y/album/15
knutnukem
-= Newbie =-
-= Newbie =-
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 04 Apr 2016, 09:00

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by knutnukem »

It's been a while... and a lot of things happened... just wanted to let you know I'm not dead yet or something ;-)
Bought that exhaust pipe I linked above. Installed it. Ran fine! Even with a cold engine the Camino reached something above 30 km/h, and after a while almost 40! Pulled far better than before! The problem with the idle speed remained however: either the engine went off, or it pulled pretty hard with no gas, depending on how I set the idle screw. It also still did not make a difference on how I set the air/gas adjustment screw. But I was happy. I was...
On my last test ride before handing the Camino over to my son for whom I was preparing it, the engine all of a sudden stopped at top speed, the engine braked hard and there I was... and could not start it any more.
In the meantime a local mofa expert disassembled it and told me the carburator was full of dirt. He said the reason should be rust in the tank. He cleaned the carburator in an ultrasonic bath, reassembled the bike and told me to get rid of the rust or the problem would come back. Apart from that, he thinks the compression is not so well.
It runs again, quite well, but it is now extremely hard to start (not as before). When pedalling to start it up, it sounds like dry coughing.
Oh well. It never gets boring with that Camino ;-)
User avatar
GoBieN
-= Beheerder =-
-= Beheerder =-
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed 03 Sep 2003, 12:54
Location: Roeselare
Contact:

Re: Lack of top speed!?

Post by GoBieN »

If the bike made a hard brake at full speed it sounds to me like you experienced something we call "vastloper", where the piston locks up in the cylinder. Mostly because a piston segment or circlips has broken off and got stuck between the piston and cylinder. Usually that means the end of both piston and cylinder. In your case it might just have been a big piece of dirt or rust. This is off-course just a guess.
Anyways, you should probably remove the cylinder head and check out the cylinder and piston for any signs of damage.

Also the air/gas mixture screw plays a big part in the tuning the combustion. If the mixture ratio is not good you could overheat the cylinder which also is similar to a "vastloper". So it could also be related to this. The default setting for the mixture screw was 2 full 360° turns outwards from totally turned in position. This is the default, you should check the color of your spark plug to see the results. Coffee with milk brown is the color the spark plug should have. If it looks a little white than there is too much heat, probably to much air in the mixture. If it looks a little black than there is not enough air or you have too much oil in your gas.

But first priority is to clean and treat the gastank or replace it with a good one. When you've done that I suggest putting a little filter in between the gastube. Like this:
Image
Post Reply